In previous posts, I discussed how one should pay for date nights. Do you go dutch or does one person pay for everything? In all this talk, I failed to explain the concept of going dutch; foreign to both the Swedes and the Dutch.
What is this funny idea from the lower country called The Netherlands? First, I did a little research on the history of going, the popularity of it in different countries, and then what people think of it. I went to Wiki, Yahoo Answers, Facebook status message, and even Twitter.
According to the Wikipedia entry, which unfortunately has been marked as full of weasel language, the definition is a bit nebulous. The phrase did probably originate in Holland because people pay for their own share when going out in groups. Makes sense to me. But on dates, or one-on-one events, the man usually pays for the meal (food and drinks). Standard etiquette says that the inviter pays for the meal. Equality etiquette states that the man and woman pay for their own share. Somewhere in between, some pissed off British blokes decided to insult the Dutch by coining the term “going dutch.” The phrase originated somewhere in the 1870s though it is unclear.
There was also an explanation of what happens in Sweden:
In Sweden, the practice of splitting the bill in restaurants is common. In a courtship situation where both parts have a similar financial standing, which is commonplace in Sweden, the traditional custom of the man always paying in restaurants has largely fallen out of use and is by many, including etiquette authorities[who?], considered old fashioned. Generally a romantic couple will take turns paying the bill or split it. It is generally assumed that everyone pays for himself or herself in restaurants unless the invitation stated otherwise.
I asked this to everyone: What does “going dutch” mean to you? And do you ‘go dutch’ on dates?
From Twitter:
@souldate: to split a restaurant bill by only paying exactly for what you had.
@pontusolin: That you split the costs at a social engagement.
@Ingyplingy: I thnk for Swedes it’s normal. But then, the majority of women here have been part of the work force since the 70s. At least. [Well] I actually don’t really care :-) We can go dutch, he can pay, OR I can pay!!! How about that, huh? ;) I still think there seems to be a cultural diff, since it seems like men r still expected to b able to provide for a family in US
From Facebook:
AN (American girl in the US): splitting the bill? walking around naked? plan a trip to the netherlands? ?
Sapphire: wee! i like the walking around naked part. do you think people should go dutch on the first date?
AN: do i think they should walk around naked on the first date? I mean…maybe…if its hot outside.
do i think they should split the bill on the first date? hell no! but, of course, i do live in the south…
RF (American girl in the US): hahhaa, You are hilarious!! I totally agree though- I share these impressions of going dutch;)
Saf (American girl in the US): Going dutch on a first date means that whoever invited you is cheap, wasn’t raised to be a gentleman…AND probably walks around naked ALL the time. But, of course, I’m from SF, so this is normal.
CM (swedish/american dude): I’m against it. She pays.. or I’m not putting out :P JK
Seriously, but no.. dutch is a bit of a hassle.. but I don’t mind if the girl pays.. once in a while.. that’s how swedish I am.
LBO (american girl married to a Swede in Sweden): i like it. It makes everyone equal. I enjoy myself more if I pay my share. =) We used to do it in the US [go dutch] , we don’t now. now I either pay all or he pays all.
Porbjorn (the poor chap attached to me): I dont like it [going dutch], just don’t really like it. It is ok if none of you really have money; like if you’re a student. But well, if a guy brings a girl on a date, i think the guy should pay.
To sum it up: there is no good answer to it. Going dutch depends on the guy, the girl, and the circumstances around the date. Seemingly normal girls can go insane if they must pay their own way. Chivalrous attitudes required by men are neither arcane nor unnecessary. Women should truly take pity on men, as they have no idea what is acceptable and what is not. If I were a man, I would take her to a good restaurant (nothing fancy) and pay for that first date. If she seems like the type that wants everything paid for, then be prepared and face the wallet consequences.
Otherwise, if you are girl on a date, make the effort to take part in the expenses. Sometime I pay for ice cream or drinks if we go to another place after dinner. Whether America or Sweden or somewhere in between, there should be some equality between the sexes.
But men can still hold the door. ;)
For me it’s not so much about equality between sexes anymore. It’s about practicality, courtesy and financial standing between people who know each other, be they friends, colleagues, spouses, dates or family. A rule of thumb is to think of how the dinner was decided.
- Was it a special (i.e. birthday, romantic etc.) invitation? Then the person who invited, chose restaurant and so on should pay. So in that case I agree that if a guy invites a girl out on a date, he should pay for it. But I would also expect the girl to reciprocate now and then and take the initiative, whether it be an invitation to a restaurant dinner, a home cooked one or something else.
- Was it casually/mutually decided upon, e.g. “I’m hungry, you want to get something to eat?” or “Let’s go eat something”, then you only have to pay for yourself. But it can often be practical to take turns paying, regardless of it being spouses/dates/friends/family – it usually evens out in the end.
If you plan on paying, then it can also often be beneficial to say/imply it up front, e.g. “Let me buy you dinner.” or “Want to go and get something to eat? My treat.” if you think there’s the slightest chance of confusion later on.
Otherwise, I agree with Sapphire’s conclusions. With the addition that someone who wants everything paid for, all the time, does not interest me at all. I need to be able to respect a potential partner as an equal. There’s a swedish word for the kind of helpless woman who needs to be taken care of at all times. It’s called a “våp” and it’s not a flattering term. (Might exist an english equivalent, but I can’t find it)
The custom that says men should *always* pay for women is hopelessly antiquated and should have disappeared at the same time women got the right to vote. Not something to bring into the 21st century. One of the problems, as I see it, is that this is connected to the custom that it’s always the guy who invites the girl to dinner.
That’s my 2 cents, anyhow.
Good post!
I see from your other tweeps´s answers that we understood the question differently, I knew what going Dutch meant and didn’t think it needed explaining… possibly Swedish naivité :-)
What I couldn’t explain on Twitter for obvious reasons was that I basically have the same ideas as Pontus. If I am dating a man and I am making more or less the same money as he is, then there is absolutely no reason for him to be always paying for things. If however, one of us is making significantly more money than the other person then I think it would be ok if the richer person pays more often (based on income differences, not sex). I would do it anyway, if I were the one making the big bucks. I don’t care about money, I care about having a nice meal with my dude (if I had one :-)).
Hi there :)
This is such a gray area for me because up until recently I’ve only dated broke musicians. It has almost always been dutch or me fronting the money…..Its a huge turn off. If a guy invites a girl out he should pay. That being said it could be anything from Coffee to a gourmet meal. It is not the amount that counts to most women but the gesture. The first few dates is really where I think that men should take the initiative as far as paying goes. After that it should be equal.
@Pontus- Thanks for your input. I cannot think of an equivalent to våp but those kinds of girls definitely exist everywhere. And I agree, if someone invites you out for dinner, that person should pay. But at the same time, if you happen to be a girl, it is okay to ask a men out to dinner and for the GIRL to pay.
@Ingela- Yea, I was not too clear on defining it on Twitter but I’m happy with everyone’s input. I agree with the point that the person who makes more money could pay a little more often. Unfortunately in the US the income inequality between sexes is much bigger than it is in Sweden. Maybe that’s why women expect men to pay more often.
I can even say from experience that male friends who make more than me usually pay for our outings, though mainly they’re small (quick dinner, coffee, ice cream, popcorn at the movies). But I also pay for girlfriends who are still in college and have little disposable income.
@Jacqueline- Definitely, when men pay, it’s very nice gesture and quite sweet. Do you think it steams from the fact that women seem more invested in dates so men pay for the first few? Or something else?
Any thoughts from others?
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